Some features to consider

2D CAD software for Windows, Mac OS X and Linux
debenriver
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Re: Some features to consider

Post by debenriver » Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:22 pm

Hi Eric

I love waking up to a new beta :D

View is perfect. I tried on a really big drawing that is normally quite slow to move around in – so I have it split into layers and only one layer visible at a time. With all the layers visible, I can zip around very quickly with the new View menu. Another useful point is if you get "lost" when zooming or scrolling, it's quicker to go back to a View than it is use ⌘F and then zoom in again.

There is one tiny glitch – the zoom ratio bottom right doesn't change when you go to a new view. I was at 50 zoom and went to a view at 200 zoom – it stayed at 50 in the little zoom box. It knew it was at 200 OK, because if I hit the zoom-in icon it goes to 400. It's not very important.

Predictably I have a few points with the Command Line :mrgreen:

1. I honestly don't think using tab and shift-tab to navigate through the boxes is viable: you have to look at the boxes to know where you are; it's a bit slow; and if you overshoot, it's a real pain to do a shift-tab, specially with one hand. Shift-tab must be the most under-used set of keystrokes on the keyboard! Somehow, you really do want to be able to hit a single key to take you to the box you want, without having to look or count how far you've gone. But see Edit at end!

2. I had wondered about using the same shortcuts twice for different things. I guess I'd hoped that it would be OK technically – I really don't think it is at all a problem in terms of use. I don't find, for example, using L to access the Line tool and then using it to get to a length box, once I am in the Line tool, a problem. Maybe others would .... But if it can't be done technically, then that's another problem.

Maybe we could use the letters we do have left; or numbers? Not so good mnemonically, but I guess one would soon memorize them. I suppose we can have "A" back, now we have Esc for the arrow selection tool (great improvement :D )

3. I think x0, y0 and x1, y1 should be x1, y1 and x2, y2 so they are the same as the Edit panel

4. There's a couple of glitches with trying to draw a perpendicular line:

(a) It's not getting x0 right – I guess because snap activates a short distance away from the line you are drawing the perpendicular from – see image below. x0 should read the same as x1 in the Edit panel, but it doesn't. So the perpendicular lines starts from the wrong place. C and E seem to be just fine.
command_line.jpg
command_line.jpg (16.55 KiB) Viewed 18768 times
b) And because y0 isn't "live" (doesn't change as you move up and down the line to draw your perpendicular), the y position of the perpendicular reverts to the original y0, rather than where you want it to be.

c) And you can only effectively draw a perpendicular to a vertical line, unless you enter an angle (because it defaults to 0º) - which defeats the whole purpose of having a perpendicular modifier tool – which brings me to Point 5!

5. I think the Command line boxes need to be "live" like the Edit panel, so they always have real data in them as you draw and you only have to specify and change those that you want to; the others stay as drawn.

6. Perhaps to simplify things just the most commonly used bits could have keystrokes. The others are accessed manually before you start to draw, if you wish to. Or with tab/shift-tab as a last resort. So just these attributes are accessible by keystroke:

For the Line tools: Length (J), Angle (A)
For the Arc tool: Radius (B)
For the Circle tool: Radius (B)
For the Oval tool: Length (J), Width (W)
For the rectangle tool: Length (J), Width (W)
For the Rounded rectangle tool: Length (J), Width (W), Radius (B)

Other attributes are set as now in the Edit panel after you have drawn the object – or by physically dragging some part of it (like you commonly do wth an arc to set the start and end points, included angle etc).

To make life even better these Attributes could be the default when the tool is selected, so you have a head start, and for perpendicular lines, circles and arcs you only have to enter the data, not worry about a keystroke.

Edit: If it defaulted as above, we wouldn't even need keystrokes – it wouldn't be a problem to tab from the default to the others – it's only one tab in the case of a Free Line, Oval and Rectangle – and two tabs for the Rounded Rectangle – even I can count up to two :D

Again - as ever - just suggestions .... George

Eric Pousse
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Re: Some features to consider

Post by Eric Pousse » Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:32 am

Ho, you want use the command line to draw perpendicular lines... it is much harder !

For letters, now Esc, A, S, H, Z, X, L, R, O, D, Y, Q, U AND M are for tools,
And G, E, C, I, P, T for attractions.

I can remove A for the selection tools and put it for Text tool (as Mike says because its icon is a A).

In the command line, letters can be for tools or attraction when we are in the first textfield to change the tool for example
For other textfields, letters will be active only for command line.
Oui/Non ?

Cordialement.
Eric Pousse

debenriver
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Re: Some features to consider

Post by debenriver » Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:49 pm

Good Morning Eric
Ho, you want use the command line to draw perpendicular lines... it is much harder !
Um ... yes :mrgreen: Perps. and circles by the centre are the two most important things I want to do with the command line! Told you I was a pesky nuisance!

Circles by the centre works well now and I use it all the time. And actually Rectangles and Ovals work fine too. You have to hit the space bar between data, which isn't a problem.

I use the command line with Click and Drag and don't have any problem with it.

I was so used to doing this wth the old clariscad (perpendiculars also :D ) – so it's never seemed strange to me.

As I said in my Edit to the earlier post, after thinking about it a bit more, – if the command line boxes were alive and filled with data as you drew and the most important attribute were selected by default (so that box was on focus), then you wouldn't really need keystrokes to move from box to box. For circle, perp. line, and arc you would simply type the data (which would be Length, or Radius), hit Enter and let go of the mouse.

For Line (other than Perp.), Line by Centre, Oval and Rectangle, you would type the default data (Length), hit the dreaded Tab key, type the data for Angle or Width as appropriate and hit Enter.

For the Rounded Rectangle you would have to tab and enter data twice.

This is all based on the presumption that the most common entry for a particular tool is selected by default, so you know where you are and haven't got to look at the command line, or tab down a long row of boxes to get to where you want to be (and maybe over-shoot). The presumption also is that the majority of people draw this way, rather than by entering start and finish x and y co-ordinates.

Of course you could simply put the most common boxes first - but this would be a bit unconventional – and make the Command Line different from the Edit panel, which would be pretty confusing.

Mike has been suggesting for a long time that, on the Edit panel, when you go to post-edit an object, the specific most common box is pre-selected. So, for a Line, when you selected it, the Length box would be on focus by default and all you have to do is type in the required length. At the moment you have to tab down the boxes until you reach the Length box – which is the same problem that I'm not liking on the Command line!

x and y start and finish coordinates, and dx and dy, would still be there for those who wanted to draw that way – but I'm pretty sure that is a small minority nowadays – willing to be proved wrong however!

Line width and line colour are not really drawing tools so much as attributes (they are in a different menu even), so I don't think one expects to be able to set those on the fly – any more than dashed line, arrows etc etc. So, just personally, I wouldn't bother with them in the command line. The shorter and simpler the better. I don't think it eventually needs a pallet as such - just little boxes along the bottom of the screen, or in the scroll bar.

If the command line boxes are always active (provided you have selected Command Line in the Windows menu), then x1, y1 double us as Mouse Position when simply moving about the screen with the Arrow cursor selected.

Sorry for the long posts. It's hard to describe what I'm thinking briefly.

Cheers -- George

Eric Pousse
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Re: Some features to consider

Post by Eric Pousse » Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:34 pm

Bonjour George,

You are right my new command line is too complicated.
What about that (for a line) :
- 2 textfields for the first point x1, y1 or xc, yc, (and not x0, y0)
- a clic in mode clic and clic, fill this 2 textfields and go to the 3rd,
- or we enter the 2 values and go to the 3rd with Tab between each,
- now for the second point, the user must have the choice between x2, y2 or dx, dy or L, A but only one is displayed,
- by default the last choice made,
- to change the choice, a button to permute between this 3 choices or a key in the 3rd textfield -> X or D or L
- the choice between x2, y2 or dx, dy or L, A is saved for each tool (line, line by center, ...)

Cordialement.
Eric Pousse

debenriver
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Re: Some features to consider

Post by debenriver » Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:12 pm

That sounds pretty good Eric. I think I'm understanding it correctly. Look forward to trying it out!

Cheers -- George

Eric Pousse
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Re: Some features to consider

Post by Eric Pousse » Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:26 pm

Bonsoir George, Mike and others,

A new beta is available : http://www.adx-online.com/RealCADD451b8.zip

The new command line works for all commands except "Goto" and "DLine".
In the first textfield, you can enter letters key to select tools.
Remember that by hitting quickly many times the same letter permute the tools of the same line of the pallet.
For example, 3x "r" selects the tool roundrect.

In the 3rd textfield, you can permute the mode to enter the second point with the key "x" for x2, y2 or "d" for dx, dy or "l" for L, A (only for lines).
You can also permute the mode with the left or right arrow of the keyboard.

The "Esc" key works : first hit to select the selection tool, second hit to deselect the objects.

Cordialement.
Eric Pousse

debenriver
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Re: Some features to consider

Post by debenriver » Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:06 pm

Good morning Eric

The new command line is great! Very easy to use - no problems at all! I use it with click and drag just fine. :D I like how you can select different drawing/operating modes and that gets stored in preferences.

What actually is a DLine? I've always assumed it is a putative Double Line aka a Wall tool – which someday would be quite nice to have. I don't think GoTo and Text need to be part of the command line do they? GoTo is a bit code-like – and has maybe been superseded by the excellent new Views menu? And you don't really expect to be able to enter Text that way.

Now if I could just draw a perpendicular via the command line by entering the length (but no angle) .... :mrgreen:

I like very much how the Esc. works with text – much nicer than having to use fn-enter.

Thank you very much for all your work on this.

Cheers -- George

PS - This has spurred me on to update and complete my effort at a manual.

Eric Pousse
Posts: 723
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:31 pm
Location: Tours - France

Re: Some features to consider

Post by Eric Pousse » Fri Feb 12, 2016 8:18 pm

Bonjour George,

Thank you.

DLine is for Delta Line : the datas to enter are dx dy and the line begins from the end of the previous object.
But now with the new command line, it is possible to do the same with the Line.
For the perpendicular via the command line, you think perpendicular from the previous line?

Cordialement.
Eric Pousse

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